Would Liberal Education Prevent Terrorism?

Dan tdaxp:

January 13th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

So is the claim that graduates of schools of liberal education are more likely to have their actions explainable in terms of rational actor theory?

zen:

January 13th, 2008 at 5:22 pm

That’s an interesting question Dan.

My main point was that an engineering education given in a culturally restrictive environment will be create thiking patterns that are negatively reinforced by Islamist views and that a liberal education in addition to the engineering might be helpful in moderating these tendencies.

In regards to your question, I have not studied applying rational choice/actor theories to people in non-western cultures that lack the liberal-capitalistic-Enlightenment-based individualistic and utility-maximizing precepts that undergirdthe development of that theory.  My guess is that rational actor theory, to the extent that it has validity, would be more predictive of aggregate mean behavior of western liberal education grads than of non-western ones and it would be a poor predictor of the behavior of specific non-western individuals or small groups. 

CKR:

January 13th, 2008 at 6:43 pm

Thanks for all the links. I’ll probably write about this some time in the future, having just finished reading a book that may shed some historical light on the question, so you’ve saved me some googling.

I haven’t read any of your links, but my speculation, after many years of working with (and even living with) engineers is that they are problem-solvers. They also have a rather direct and, yes, rigid approach to that problem-solving. So the (oversimplified) reasoning would go that the answer to bad government is to remove it. What is the most efficient means of removing it? Legality and practicality would also come into play, along with, as you suggest, religious strictures and encouragements.

Charles Cameron (hipbone):

January 13th, 2008 at 7:10 pm

Hi Zen:

For some reason, your link to my name goes directly to Diglossia on Wikipedia.  Myself, I’m interested in heteroglossia and polyphony, but I suppose diglossia is close enough — and Dave’s post on Orality and Iraq certainly opens up a whole range of new issues for me.

I’m not so much thinking about engineering among a preponderance of terrorists, I’m wondering how much "liberal education" there is these days in the Intelligence Community, and how far techno-prowess and reliance on computerized systems have replaced what was, in the beginning, a major strength.  And it’s not just that liberal education brings "a propensity to question received authority" either — it also brings with it entire, relevant "frames" through which to view complex situations and perceive significant nuances — Ong’s work on orality and literacy being but one example.

zen:

January 13th, 2008 at 9:51 pm

"For some reason, your link to my name goes directly to Diglossia on Wikipedia"

Oops! Sorry Charles, fixed now.

"I’m wondering how much "liberal education" there is these days in the Intelligence Community, and how far techno-prowess and reliance on computerized systems have replaced what was, in the beginning, a major strength. "

I have no firsthand information here but based upon what I have been reading the past few years I’d say " Not nearly enough" and "Our techno-prowess itself is on a serious slide vis-a-vis the private sector".

Michael Tanji, care to comment here ?

The Lounsbury:

January 13th, 2008 at 10:04 pm

Well, I have not read over all the background material, but based only on your writing some nuances come to mind:
(i) I am not sure that there is a "disproportionate" number of engineers in the ranks of Islamist (I assume radical you mean) circles. Perhaps there is a disproportionate number among leadership, but that is unclear to me. Selection bias. Given age and educational streaming in the 1960s-1970s…
(ii) The claim that illiteracy rates are higher than official rates strikes me as … well reaching. I am not necessarily of the opinion official literacy rates are right, but your writing seems to claim a major difference, or rather imply. I am not sure with my in region private sector experience I would plump for that assumption.
(iii) I would personally be wary of lumping the Maghreb with the Machreq on educational systems – although there are commanlities, the fundamentally French modelled systems of the Maghreb which have retained a near exclusive ‘cartesian’ approach across the board on education diverge in important ways from the Machreq with its Anglo Saxon reforms.
(iv) Merely noting "engineers" of a multi-lingual, science/engineering background are an elite seems inadequate. One should also think about the ability of the employment market to respond to the perception of elite given man school leavers, undergraduate and graduate have educations that make their integration into the private sector, well, problematic.
(v) The implicit call for more balanced education, however, I agree with. Liberal Arts education or not, the rigidity of MENA region university education (with a narrow focus that leaves most graduates really quite useless from multiple perspectives in a modern economy) is an issue that has struck me practically. Leavign aside the jihad angle, the economies would be well served by a more American style university system.

An interesting question, but I think you are approaching it too little context.

Dan tdaxp:

January 13th, 2008 at 10:10 pm

zen,

Thanks.

Rational man is not a model of people are actually rational — in the sense of having good reasons for their actions — but rather of the behavior of people who are internally consistent in what they themselves want.  This is actually a knock on the whole model, as its unfalsfiable — some preference schedule can always be derived to explain any set of behavior.

The Arab engineers tend to be authoritarian (meaning, politically altruistic), intelligent, ambitious, systematic thinkers in a setting where normal means of political and economic growth are unavailable.  Thus I’d say these are the people least likely be interested in liberal education.

Dave Schuler:

January 14th, 2008 at 2:47 am

Literacy is a complex, politically-charged subject.  Every country, ours included, has reasons for claiming rates substantially higher than may be the factual truth if only for reasons of national pride.  Additionally, there’s no generally accepted definition of literacy. Consequently, the ability to read traffic signs may be literacy in one country, a newspaper the standard of literacy in another, or maybe in some places something we might recognize as genuine literacy. When we had literacy tests for voter registration, one of the common tests was reading a few sentences from the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. The Bible wasn’t a good pick—too many people have large passages memorized. That’s true of the Qur’an, too. Teaching methods frequently include group recitation which encourages memorization.

The Lounsbury:

January 14th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

Mate, I think we already went over this. Your image of "group recitation" of the Quran is not applicable to state schools…. Bloody hell, will you whankers never understand that the entire MENA region looks nothing like fucking Paki land?

Dave Schuler:

January 14th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

I think you’re mistaking my point,Lounsbury.  Not all of the teaching goes on in the government schools.  My understanding (second or third hand so it may well be mistaken) is that recitation of the Qur’an individually or in groups is a commonplace in the Muslim world.  That makes the ability to read the Qur’an, unquestionably the most widely available book in the Muslim world just as the Bible is here, a poor indicator of literacy just as the ability to read the Bible is a poor indicator of literacy in say, Tennessee.  My point is that literacy is hard to measure and verify and, when people have motivations to overestimate it, it’s likely to be overestimated.

The Lounsbury:

January 14th, 2008 at 4:21 pm

Sure recitation is common, and I grant that ability to read the Quran as such is a biased indicator and I grant that overestimation is something for which there are major incentives.

Nevertheless, I fail to see this as substantially relevant to the Arab Middle East as such, in terms of the literacy data.  It is not, to my knowledge the most common benchmark in the Middle Income states in MENA, and recitation / traditional schools are at best supplementary to standard education.

In any case, taking the low Middle Income MENA as my benchmark (which is most relevant to MENA by pop numbers), the issue at hand is less fundamental literacy, but poor quality of schooling such that even school leavers are poorly prepared for the market. Your focus on basic literacy I think is more approp to a Sudan or a Paki land than say Egypt.

In short, I think your focus is a red herring relative to where the fundamental issues are.

zen:

January 14th, 2008 at 6:13 pm

Regarding Lounsbury’s point on educational streaming/age cohort:

There was a point in time, roughly the 1950’s-1970’s when developing states, particularly those that had relatively competent strongmen for rulers, favored pouring what little money was available into elite educational programs that centered on engineering, medicine and applied sciences. The Soviets and the United States each handed out a lot of scholarships, educational visas and advanced training in these areas (recall all the Iranian students in US universities prior to 1979). At the time, for the governments involved, it seemed like a sound bet: developmental needs would be met, bright strivers could be steered into useful occupations and away from politically dangerous studies.

Except that critical thinking in terms of cognitive process can be learned equally well in mathematical -scientific fields. So these states ended up with a body of people who were extremely adept at identifying systemic flaws but groping for answers of their own in the dark. And that’s when they were not additionally frustrated by unemployment and thwarted ambitions.

TMLutas:

January 15th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

Getting back to the choice of education, I think you’re missing a valuable perspective. Look at it from the point of view of the parents funding the education. They don’t want a liberal education because liberal educations in dictatorships are dangerous to the student as well as their family. Either you get  some fool liberal ideas of revolution or you become some sort of a court poet and nobody can let their hair down at the family dinner table anymore.

If you believe in education that leaves the sciences as the only honest way to improve the family chances generationally with minimum danger. And with the hard sciences starved for R&D funds, engineering is simply the last discipline standing.

Parents won’t fund dangerous academic paths in large numbers. The fulcrum point is what would make a liberal education safe?

xcvxcv7:

December 2nd, 2008 at 6:56 pm

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Yours Truly:

December 3rd, 2008 at 12:42 pm

Sonsovab****es who blame jews & Americans for all their woes takin’ on liberal studies to improve their lot? UNbloodyTHINKABLE! Zen, this has gotta be the weirdest post here so far.

zen:

December 4th, 2008 at 4:29 am

Hi YT
.
Found an old  post, did you ? Charles is a very well educated guy who writes some intriguing papers from time to time. You should google him for more like this.
.
Re: Liberal Education – it is by it’s very nature, subversive to irrational hierarchies and traditions. The U.S. could use a lot more of it, to say nothing of the Mideast.

Fsdhabrd:

December 13th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

Thanks!,